Curse

Skyy High · Apr 04, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Tyla's posts in a nutshell:
"Even though ANet has specifically stated that rangers should be allowed to use secondary attack skills under expertise, I don't think they should, because it's 'degenerate'...so says I."

You fail, mkay? Your opinion is just that, an opinion, not a fact, and most certainly not one supported by ANet. Just read the attribute; were you not here when they changed it from affecting basically everything, to just what the attribute reads right now? ANet has affirmed the ranger's ability to be a thumper, a dagger master, or whatever else, just as they affirmed Deadly Arts' ability to be the primary focus of a build (not a support line) with a full range of lead, offhand, and dual attacks, and skills that give buffs to assassin spells while disabling dagger attacks. That just screams "build around me!" right there.

Bottom line: your opinion of what makes a build "degenerate" does not fit with ANet's opinion of what we should be able to do with secondaries. Deal.

And btw, thumpers are no more mindless than 90% of the builds that are run in this game. Heck, how are they any different from a standard warrior who runs around, smacks stuff, builds up adrenaline, and spikes? Pretty much the only thing the warrior has to do that is more difficult is stance canceling...makes all the difference, amiright? The thumper has to deal with getting his pet to attack the right target; not as difficult to be sure, but certainly not a simple feat, and something that you can practice and get better at. Just like a warrior, both classes can be run by idiots who just like to smack things, and both classes can be run more effectively by people who put thought into their play. Spam KDs, or try to interrupt something with your KD before spiking? In sway, you just spam, and it's completely mindless, but fully taking out all secondary builds is not necessary for nerfing sway (and it won't even be effective. Wooo I have to pay 5 energy instead of 2-3 to get a crushing blow off.)

Anyway, bring on the cats, because this topic got stupid when people started plugging their fingers in their ears and chanting "DEGENERATE" about 3 pages ago.

This may not "kill" rangers in PvP, because all the r/x builds generally suck in any organized PvP against any kind of good team...but if that's the case, why bother nerfing the fun of people who are just experimenting? Why bother limiting options like this, when they've given us a huge open system where we can mix secondary skills with primary attributes? They've given us spirit's strength, and illusionary weaponry, CLEAR indicators that we can use casters as melee characters as well. Will they outshine a warrior? No, of course not. But they're still fun to play occasionally, and there is no good reason to remove that kind of experimental fun.

tmr819 · Apr 04, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Alright, I'm going to have to side with Tyla on this one. Mostly. And, since I'm a little more clever and pedagogic than he or she is, I'm going to explain my position in a way that is understandable.

If a primary class can do the job of another primary class, using this class' skills, and do it better... if an R/W can make a better hammer warrior than a Warrior, and if an R/N can make a better necromancer toucher than a Necromancer... then there is a problem with the design of the game.

One more thing... no class in the game is as fundamentally broken as the Ranger. The Soul Reaping analogy does not work.

Soul Reaping provides a conditional superiority. It tells you, if things die with enough frequency, you might be able to outperform other classes at their own game. Is this bad? Maybe. However, Expertise provides an absolute superiority. As an example, R/N vampire touchers are always better than Necromancer touchers. I'm just using this example because it is so blatant, not because it's the most important. A Necromancer could never run the N portion of an R/N toucher build... because he would run out of energy. Now, that's irony, isn't it?

Expertise should be changed.

I disagree with the OP, as I think Expertise is fine as is. I say leave it be.

However, I quote the above post because it states so well the case for "fixing Expertise." Moloch, I do not agree with your conclusion (as I am not convinced, for example, that a R/W makes a more effective hammer Warrior than a W/X), but I must commend you for making such a sensible and well-reasoned argument. Your point about Soul Reaping was particularly good.

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Skyy, please quit the game. Read Pyro Maniac's post where he described Warriors as a multi-dimensional powerhouse of damage.

And tell me how Thumpers require skill. Hit RaO on recharge and smash Hammer Bash -> Crushing Blow -> Mauling Strike or whatever the pet skill is, and there you go. For target switching? Micro your pet to go on aggressive on your next target. Simple.

And pay attention to that thing I said earlier...EC -> SD spike would have probably been nerfed regardless of balance because Mesmers aren't supposed to be played like that.

Oh yeah, if the majority of builds are mindless, I want to see you in high level GvG, kthx.

Plus you're not paying attention to what I'm saying on anything. Coming up with the same "Even though ANet has specifically stated that rangers should be allowed to use secondary attack skills under expertise, I don't think they should, because it's 'degenerate'...so says I." crap. You've seen some of the retarded stuff that's been created. When Turret Rangers spawned they were nerfed because they were overpowered and degenerate.

Stop failing yourself, and stop posting because the whole "Warriors take no skill" thing is extremely stupid, likewise, your arguments.

~ Dan ~ · Apr 04, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

I know. Because he was right. When was the last time you actually STRUGGLED with Guild Wars?

Press 123456 in top 100 GvG.

shru · Apr 04, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Tyla, I'd be more inclined to take you seriously if you could make atleast one post that did not contain the word "Degenerate" or your own opinion on class specifications stated Matter'o'factly.

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Again, it's not an opinion. And again, it's degenerate builds. Who cares about people bad at Rangers and the secondary profession they're manipulating and using as their first? Bad players. I've explained why it's degenerate already aswell. And boring to play against. Stop defending that gimmicky shit because "it's synergy", because it isn't.

If you want numbers play a Dervish or a Warrior, or even a 'Sin.

Orange Milk · Apr 04, 2008, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Wow this has gotten pretty out of hand just because some guy keeps failing to Rangers in HA and fails to bring counters at all.

No QQ over HA builds should ever be taken serious, as someone has already stated "HA is full of gimmicks, it has been since day one"

Wheres the Kitten Poll? <---much more gooder topic to discuss than this BS

And Stormlord Alex's kitten to the poll when added please .

PS to those of you that say "A RaO does more Dmg than a Hammer Warrior" All I can say is LEARN TO PLAY you have got to be kidding me, and I cant tell you the last time I saw a RaO in PvP anyway, they are dead, been dead. I LOLED huge at the posts that thought this, funny shit.

As far as R/D, 1 anti melee Necro with Rigor mortis (Which is part of the typical balanced build in any PvP arena) can shut down several of them without breaking a sweat.

Trappers in HA, wanding > trappers, any hex kills natrual stride, then wand away.

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Wow this has gotten pretty out of hand just because some guy keeps failing to Rangers in HA and fails to bring counters at all.

No QQ over HA builds should ever be taken serious, as someone has already stated "HA is full of gimmicks, it has been since day one"

Wheres the Kitten Poll? <---much more gooder topic to discuss than this BS

And Stormlord Alex's kitten to the poll when added please .

PS to those of you that say "A RaO does more Dmg than a Hammer Warrior" All I can say is LEARN TO PLAY you have got to be kidding me, and I cant tell you the last time I saw a RaO in PvP anyway, they are dead, been dead. I LOLED huge at the posts that thought this, funny shit.

As far as R/D, 1 anti melee Necro with Rigor mortis (Which is part of the typical balanced build in any PvP arena) can shut down several of them without breaking a sweat.

Trappers in HA, wanding > trappers, any hex kills natrual stride, then wand away.

Oh for RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO sake. It's that these builds are degenerate and boring to play against, not their power -- FOR THE MILIONTH TIME.

Oh, and by the way, trappers are usually accompanied with Song of Conc, and more than just Natstride for a block stance I've seen.

Playing against R/D-ways all the time is SO BORING. I want a new gimmick to load on.

A millionth +1 because of ignorance, stupidity, and most of all people being beyond stubborn.

shru · Apr 04, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Again, it's not an opinion. And again, it's degenerate builds. Who cares about people bad at Rangers and the secondary profession they're manipulating and using as their first? Bad players. I've explained why it's degenerate already aswell. And boring to play against. Stop defending that gimmicky shit because "it's synergy", because it isn't.

If you want numbers play a Dervish or a Warrior, or even a 'Sin.

Again Tyla, you amaze us with your depth and insight into the matter...
You've yet to provide any circumstantial evidence to back up your claims, leaving them to be just (like every other post in the last 3 pages has told you) worthless opinions. YES, rangers can use a secondary profession. YES, expertise allows them to due it particularly well. NO, they are not replacing said secondary, just offering a new aproach to it (typically involving escape or RaO, which, like I've stated several other times in this thread, should be nerfed)
If you are going to post in this thread again please try to follow these guidelines, I believe you failed to catch them last time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Tyla, I'd be more inclined to take you seriously if you could make atleast one post that did not contain the word "Degenerate" or your own opinion on class specifications stated Matter'o'factly.

And please, take your Escapeway QQ garbage out of the thread.

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Lolu.
You've yet to provide evidence against my evidence. GG.

~ Dan ~ · Apr 04, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Tyla · Apr 04, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Ima archive this thread for the lulz. srsly...

shru · Apr 04, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

no more degenerate builds!!...degenerate...I have problems with R/D Escape Scythers because they're degenerate. Degenerate builds should be degenerated...all the Rangers playing degenerate...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

But I myself really want to see all this degenerate crap die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

...like any other 'Sins require no skill and are degenerate like all these crappy Ranger...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Any good player doesn't play degenerate builds...It doesn't stop the majority of degenerate crap being 123456789 roll your head on the keyboard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

It's still degenerate. Versatility...in the form of degenerate builds is baed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Limiting RaO to Ranger skills should get rid of them degenerate creeps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Once again, I say -- It's not how powerful it is. It's the fact it's degenerate. Degenerate builds should be degenerated.
But how will nerfing Expertise to Ranger-only skills affect anyone who knows how to play a proper Ranger and not these crappy, degenerate gimmicks? Not much. And besides, changing Expertise to this will get rid of the majority of R/X degenerate builds.
In your case, I would say "Degenerate builds deserve to get nerfed, so gtfo."

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Actually, no. I'm saying it's degenerate, because Rangers weren't ment to do that role.
Degenerate as in not ment for that role --
...and there's your degenerate spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Narrow minded? I'm against degenerate builds...
Nothing to do with secondaries, and Bloodspike is a degenerate build misguiding the role a Necro should be taking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Actually, no I'm not wrong about the defenition of what a degenerate build...Getting rid of degenerate builds stops stagnant gameplay and gets rid of the people who can't play the profession as it was intended from creation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I'll say it again. Using your secondary as a primary is degenerate....I would like to see all degenerate builds die...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

...I misunderstand why these degenerate builds deserve to stay (Which they should apparently)...Which is also degenerate play. It doesn't only rely on the playstyle as intended, but the skill required to actually run the build. Which is most of the time, none in degenerate builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I fail to understand why you're defending degenerate play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I've discussed why it's degenerate plenty of times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

...It's degenerate because I say so...Bloodspike is degenerate...How many times do I need to explain that degenerate builds deserve to die?...Using these secondary classes as a primary is extremely degenerate as I have said over and over, and degenerate builds need to die. Oh yeah, you have also not provided a decent argument to why it's not degenerate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

...and I misunderstand why these degenerate builds deserve to stay (Which they should apparently)....Which is also degenerate play...Which is most of the time, none in degenerate builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I fail to understand why you're defending degenerate play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I've discussed why it's degenerate plenty of times.
R-Spike requires alot of skill to play well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

...even if it wasn't overpowered or degenerate should be changed...doesn't mean something shouldn't be changed because of imbalanced or degenerate. Degenerate builds, again should die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

..I don't think they should, because it's 'degenerate'...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Again, it's not an opinion. And again, it's degenerate builds. I've explained why it's degenerate already aswell. And boring to play against.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Oh for RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO sake. It's that these builds are degenerate and boring to play against,

Congratulations, you've degenerated degenerate into a degenerating word....
gtfo

Pyro maniac · Apr 04, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

As far as R/D, 1 anti melee Necro with Rigor mortis (Which is part of the typical balanced build in any PvP arena) can shut down several of them without breaking a sweat.

Trappers in HA, wanding > trappers, any hex kills natrual stride, then wand away.

The fact that there are counters doesn't mean it is balanced and should excist in the first place
What alot of you fail to realise is that versatility isn't always a good thing. Yes it allows more builds thus less 'cookie-cutter' builds as you think. However as we've seen, Nightfall with many strong skills only made the balance worse.

The argument: "It isn't Anets opinion or intention" is just plain fail. There is a need of certain balance, alot of opinions have come and will come from the community.

shru · Apr 04, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

The argument: "It isn't Anets opinion or intention" is just plain fail. There is a need of certain balance, alot of opinions have come and will come from the community.

There's no doubt that we need balance, it's just that nerfing espertise is not the answer. Sure it will nerf a few of the builds (touchers and R/D) but then those can be easily fixed with minor skill tweaks.
A huge arguement in this thread has been that thumpers are overpowered, but the fact is they don't use expertise in conjunction with their secondary (the only warrior energy skill used is crushing blow) so arguements like that realy shouldn't be taken worth a grain of salt in a "Nerf Expertise thread"

Sjeng · Apr 04, 2008, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Congratulations, you've degenerated degenerate into a degenerating word....
gtfo

You sir, win the thread! You get a cookie for delving through this entire useless thread to actually quote EVERY sentance in which Tyla said Degenerate! I lolled out loud! Awesome!

On another note: hey! I'm in before the lock

stale · Apr 04, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

few thoughts here.

first is that this is purely a whining thread by the OP, based on his getting bashed by a variety of rangers using their secondaries wisely.

second, there's only ONE instance i can think of where a ranger primary does the job better than the class that he's taken the secondary of and that is the toucher, which is so very easily countered.

third, the OP needs to find himself a dictionary - and honest to god Webster's, or maybe the Oxford English, and get a proper definition for degenerate....

and, as loathe as i am to do it, i'm forced to use the guru axim (though i refuse to use leetspeak to do it)

"Learn to play, you whining scrub".

k folks, thanks for the time, eh?

bye...

Moloch Vein · Apr 04, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Can people not read the thread? [...] Thumpers and pack hunters rely on Beast Mastery not expertise... [...] Maybe a Warrior should try using a 33% unstripable IAS/Speed buff (Rampage as One), an on call daze (Bestial mauling), and extra damage added in seperate packets (pet).....none of those are expertise linked, idk why you want to change expertise to fix thumpers that only use one warrior skill that requires energy (crushing blow)...

A Warrior should use Rampage as One?

Quote:

And your vision of the necro mancer is extreamly far off.

Actually, my vision of the N profession is pretty fine

Quote:

The only reason you could say a Touch ranger is better than a necro primary is because blood magic is fairly weak as a whole and is in need of a complete overhaul.

This makes absolutely no sense. The only reason I can say that a vampiric toucher ranger is better than a necromancer primary vampiric toucher... is because it IS better. The "strength" or "weakness" of Blood is a completely moot point (and yes, I agree, it's weak, and getting weaker.)

Quote:

I'm saying this not because I don't think these builds deserve to get nerfed, but that Expertise is [B]NOT THE PROBLEM.

Of course it's the problem. It's lead to astronomical costs of some ranger skills, which effectively makes them unviable to other primaries - even those with absolutely stunning energy management options - while skills from other professions are unfairly cheap for the ranger.

Also I don't see why you should lock the thread just because some people behave like trash. Last I checked people behaving like trash meant bans and deleted posts. It's not a taboo discussion.

Fix Expertise!

N1ghtstalker · Apr 04, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

this still open?

shru · Apr 04, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

A Warrior should use Rampage as One?

That'd be fun to watch, but my point was more or less that thumpers have an edge over warriors because of said skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Actually, my vision of the N profession is pretty fine

If you think the blood magic line is a good comparison to explain how rangers are more effective than their primaries by utilizing expertise, I think you should get some glasses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

This makes absolutely no sense. The only reason I can say that a vampiric toucher ranger is better than a necromancer primary vampiric toucher... is because it IS better. The "strength" or "weakness" of Blood is a completely moot point (and yes, I agree, it's weak, and getting weaker.)

If you can show me a strong necro primary toucher build, I'll consider that opinion actualy partaining to this thread, if not, why are you comparing something the ranger does as better than necro primaries if it is completely different?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

It's lead to astronomical costs of some ranger skills, which effectively makes them unviable to other primaries - even those with absolutely stunning energy management options - while skills from other professions are unfairly cheap for the ranger.

This is partially true, but it's abit late to rework an entire profession. And realy has nothing to do with the main argument in this thread: Tyra's "Degenerate rangers that use secondary skills"